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Rink Slab replacement letters 2019

Sept.19 2019 meeting presentation We have over 1,000 signatures from park neighbors and park users all opposed to turning the rinks to a north/south direction. This petition supports leaving the rinks facing east/west. This petition supports saving thousands of dollars by leaving the 6 flood lights in place, not ripping up and rebuilding the basketball court, and not taking down the cherry tree. The thousands of dollars saved could be spent on other much needed park projects.

Talking to park neighbors and park users and gathering over 1,000 signatures was made possible with help from Judy, a long-time neighborhood resident, Toni who has lived in the park all summer (71 year old homeless woman), Jackie who walked her dog in the park daily, Andrea a neighborhood mom of two small boys, a young basketball player who got all his basketball friends as well as his skateboarder friends to sign, as well as a couple of other neighbors who care about the proposed changes to the park. These over 1,000 people feel strongly that their voices will be heard.

The 24 Community Resource Group members represented special interest groups:

Bike polo, shinny hockey, skateboarders, basketball players, Thurs Farmer’s Market,

919 Dufferin apt. Building, community gardens, and parents with children...

The over 1,000 neighbors and park users expressed empathy for a park renovation picture which was more inclusive.

My question to the architect: "Please clarify the reasons behind rotating the ice rinks to north/south direction?" She is answer above: sun in ice hockey players eyes and building a 'plaza'.

FYI: Saved money can be spent:

A much-needed bathroom at the children’s playground.

New wading pool surface.

Fresh sand in the adventure playground.

Field house and bathrooms renovated.

Sun in basketball players eyes!!!

Loss of basketball court for 1 or 2 years.

March 27: I was at a meeting last night about the revitalization project for the northwest corner of Dufferin Grove. I brought up the environmental cost of replacing the rink and mentioned that a number of people that I've spoken to who play hockey there say they don't care if the rink is standard size or not. However, one man at the meeting said the rink is a "disaster." Peter Didiano, Supervisor of Capital Projects, wanted to know who these people were who didn't care about the rink being a standard size.

It's relevant because the city is citing the need for the hockey rink to be a standard size as a reason for its replacement. (Standard size would be slightly bigger than the rink is now.) I don't play hockey, but if you do, perhaps you could weigh in and let LURA, the firm in charge of consulting with the community, know your thoughts:

March 27, 2019: I would like to add my name to those who want the rink replaced. I am a hockey player and have played shinny at Dufferin Grove for many years. I haven't gone in recent years because it was so crowded, but I recall when I did play, the corners were not touched by the Zamboni, and it made the rink seem even smaller. The large doors for the Zamboni had a gap at the bottom, where the puck would easily slide under, we would have to stop the game and dig it out. The rink was in rough shape, and I am sure it is in worse shape now.

I am all for the environment, but the rink truly needs to be replaced. It is a great hub of activity for so many people in the area, everyone would benefit.

March 27: I would think not having a standard size rink would at some point (maybe now) deprive the park of income in rentals for hockey games from leagues. It’s not all about shinny hockey or pleasure skating. Just a thought off the top of my pointy head.

March 27: There is an official NHL standard size but not all NHL rinks conform to it (I could be wrong - I haven’t watched hockey in years).

Having spent forty odd years walking through the park I’d say that shinny and pleasure skating *are* what it’s all about. I can’t do either activity but it’s always given me pleasure to watch those on the ice as I pass by. Gives me a real sense of community. The ice is always busy.

If there’s a plan to open the ice up to organized hockey games, that’s fine, but it should be a stated part of the proposal. And if there will be visiting teams where are visitors going to park?

One more thing: I’d like to know how many rink users have actually lodged complaints with the city about rink size or dimensions. Most organized hockey takes place in covered rinks anyway.

March 27: I am the person who spoke at the meeting yesterday. I play shinny a lot at Dufferin and my thoughts about the rink have developed over years. My problem isn't really the size - at my age smaller is better, but this rink is the wrong shape. It needs to be wider so that the Zamboni can do the corners. The corners as they are now present a safety problem because the ice is usually not skatable. I think that for this reason a one-time opportunity to replace the rink should not be passed up. A standard size rink is a good choice - it is the most flexible.

I have played on several nearby rinks this year (Christie Pits, Wallace in particular) and there is general agreement among the players that the actual ice surfaces there are much better.

March 27: Hi, I feel a standard size rink is best for the youth who use the rink. The after school shinny games are packed with kids and more room would be great for them. Hockey Canada is instituting cross ice play for young hockey players this year, this means younger children could be set up in a way that allows more players on the ice at the same time. This rink upgrade is a one time opportunity there is no reason not to have slightly larger ice surface it benefits all the shiny groups.

March 27: Please find another perspective regarding the rink development which I want Ms. Bailao to address - specifically - and please consider reading neighbours:

Three years is simply too long to go without a hockey rink at this prime location – to only make the ice surface ‘slightly larger’. The fact that the Dufferin Grove (DG) outdoor hockey rink is currently so popular for youth after-school shinny games (as you mention) is proof that DG, in its current state, is an essential part of the community and would be sorely missed for 3 years.

You also mention Hockey Canada’s (HC) initiative to promote ‘small ice’ games for youth hockey players, beginning at the Novice level. This also lends credence to leaving the DG ice surface as-is. Despite the rink not being standard arena size, a smaller-than-standard surface actually improves the hockey skills of the youth lucky enough to have access to a high-quality, outdoor rink like DG to play shinny hockey.

Children fortunate enough to be registered with an organized minor hockey association will have access to standard-size indoor arenas, where the 2 cross-ice HC set-up can be used. The outdoor shinny game – which the youth at DG currently enjoy – promotes good skating, passing and on-ice creativity, which is the ultimate goal of the HC initiative.

Please deny these youth the chance to keep playing on a great outdoor ice surface, albeit a little smaller than standard-size. Kids are resourceful and can organize impromptu shinny games of 4-on-4 or 5-on-5, etc. Let them figure it out - don’t shut them out!

Shutting them out for 3 years will deny local kids the growth and enjoyment that playing free, easily accessible, outdoor hockey gives to kids of all ages and social/economic backgrounds.

With our population only growing (looking at projections for the GTA) it would see we need to KEEP our Rink and ADD another one, either in the park or NEARBY (maybe in the development at Bloor and Dufferin). We need more rinks, not a slightly larger one which further means no having one for three years.

March 28: I have not seen the city's rationale for replacing the rinks.

I believe the city is wasting money.

There is nothing wrong with the ice at Dufferin Grove. It's not perfect, but perfectly good to have a lot of fun.

The dimensions of the rink, for the purposes of shinny, are great. This is not the OHL!

If it ain't broke don't fix it, and spend our money to buy more land and plant more trees and open more new rinks. Why is there no ice rink on which to play shinny at CityPlace, for example? Where is the shinny rink at Liberty Village? These are huge new neighbourhoods that deserve infrastructure, and places to skate.

The city has demonstrated flexibility and been a good partner with the community at Dufferin Grove for many years and I want this collaboration to continue.

I will also forward this thought to Ana Bailao.

March 28: John D, I don't agree with the need for a "slightly" larger rink. (We play hockey there and we don't see it as necessary.) The cons far outweigh your argument of giving a little more room. What a huge expensive and the lost of several years of skating to prioritize shinny having a bit more room, or to offer more lucrative options which may not bring the positives to the community that one may think.

My son plays shinny at the park several nights a week every winter and we have never felt that they needed more room- a luxury argument. Not how we would spend this money. If this slightly larger format opens up the option for future money making schemes and leagues I would want to be well aware ahead of time of exactly how this will work before supporting it. The risks of negatives it could bring mean we are against it. It may push out the community public skating and shinny that exists now and dramatically affect the overall well being of a currently well used, community oriented and wonderful rink/ park.

I had to drive around 4 blocks to find a parking spot with groceries just yesterday! and the rink isn't drawing extra people right now! I don't want to see more cars anywhere near this park. They are now driving straight through the park on the path regularly!

Some snowy corners are far from a major safety hazard in my opinion. If it's such a safety hazard have the staff clear those few feet by hand. We are so crazy risk averse this is absurd to me. My son was in more danger from the egos of the foul mouthed hockey dads on the rink than the snowy corners posing a hazard because the Zamboni can't fit perfectly to clear.

It's only going to get worse if these developments are not well considered in terms of this rink plan. Sure some improvements would be welcome to the park, but I'd rather see this money spent in a wiser fashion that doesn't jeopardize the positive aspects of this park.

I still haven't heard a grounded practical argument for this size being so necessary for the heavy financial cost and potential neg impact on the park for years and possibly permanently.

March 28: All the players on my Thursday shinny games, as well as those I’ve spoken to who play in Friday, have said they support replacing the rink. John is our rep on this community group but Jim was there last night in his stead and said the same. The corners are really bad, dangerous in fact, and there are a number of bare spots that are apparent at the beginning and end of the season. I talked to the City planners at the meeting at the church last month and mentioned I’d like to see a roof to keep the rain/snow/sun off to maximize usage as well. I’d also like to see solar panels installed.

March 28: With regards to the issue of whether shinny players feel that the current rink dimension is problematic and the replacement ought to go ahead....

From my perspective, having found Dufferin Grove as my first regular outdoor hockey rink experience ever, in Toronto, (grew up in Ottawa), I feel like i've landed in outdoor hockey paradise.

The ice is excellent, almost all of the time... with the exception of the sunny milder days (obviously) and other freakish weather patterns which prevent the zamboni from being able to do its regular scrape/flood routine (rain or snow primarily). The sense of community down there is instafectious. The staff are awesome. The food's amazing. The clubhouse is a palace of warmth, fun and great company. Its open all the time... Arriving down there for a sesh on a cold day, seeing both rinks full of skaters and shinners is something that every hockey player would celebrate. Seriously, this place is probably one of the best outdoor rinks in the world. Not joking. Even if the hockey is a little faster and higher caliber over at Pitts... THEY DON'T FLOOD ALL THROUGH THE DAY, as they do at the Duff. Thank you Zambonier!

The fact that the pads are not standard size is absolutely no problem for me. I really don't see why this should be such a huge issue. Very strange if you ask me.

I grew up playing indoor organised hockey all through my childhood on what must have been 'standard' sized rinks and you know it never really occurred to me that the Duffice was anything SUBstandard. Sure, once prodded, one would notice that she is shy wide by a metre and a bit BUT COME ON!? Cut it all out, trash the lot... all that PARADISE... to do what? Get the tape measure out and start again with an extra metre width??? This is in my view a ridiculous waste of time money etc...

BIKE POLO folk don't want it wider Interestingly enough, at the meeting back in early March, the bike polo folk were chirpin that if the rink was to become wider it would have a negative impact on their game. They also love it the way it is.

I agree with previous comments...

BUILD MORE RINKS... don't break up this great one we have at the Duff.

IF IT AIn't BROKE DON'T FIX IT. ( I can only assume that we're having this convo because it has been deemed to be NOT broken or in need of imminent replacement.)

To extend width to standard size would mean we'd be without the Duff for 3 YEARS?!? Oh my gosh... the shinny hockey community and wider frongs of the rink rats would suffer a huge blow through this costly transition. It would become busy again eventually, but what we have now would be broken up and changed forever.

If having standard size means more attractive for organised hockey, tournaments, rentals... THIS IS ALSO NOT BENEFICIAL FOR OUR SHINNY COMMUNITY. Imagine... being without our Duff for 3 years and then when it FINALLY arrives again, in the next decade, our kids all grown up with beards n babies, headin out to enjoy that freshly added metre and a bit of ice width which allows for that exhilarating extra semi-stride each way, but then NOT BEING ALLOWED ON THE ICE because the Oshawa Stingbarts are playing the Richmond Hill Flatpucks in a special inner city outdoor hockey tournament!!! That would really take the wind out of my sail. Half a million bucks down and still no ice time at our beloved Duff :(

I'm all for taking a rain check on this one! Leave the Great Duff the way it is... I already can't wait til next hockey season comes round again!!

March 29: Dear neighbours, I have noticed that many residents have recently been sharing their comments regarding potential changes to the ice rink at Dufferin Grove Park as part of the work being planned in consultation with the community.

I'd like to clarify that the proposed changes to the ice rink shape have been brought forward by the City's project team as a result of the experiences technicians and skaters alike have had. City technicians have difficulty in keeping the ice safe and cleared as the Zambonis are not able to properly clear the corners of the ice rink due to the shape of the rink. The City's proposed standardized geometry for ice rinks is the standard because it allows the proper maintenance and clearing of the ice by the Zambonis. They have also heard that some skaters have tried to avoid the corners of the rink due to the poor ice surface and problems this presents them, be it during shinny or otherwise.

The project team encourages everyone to share their feedback with them and there is a lot of valuable community input that has been incorporated and will continue to be part of this process. As such, I encourage everyone who has comments about the ice rink to share them with the project team so that your feedback is captured as part of the consultation process. You can do so by emailing them to

March 29: I totally don’t care if the rink is bigger. It already makes everyone happy and the shinny there is amazing — my son came home this winter from some of the best shinny he has ever played, which were his words. He’s 16 and has grown up with that rink. I love how so many ages can be worked in to the shinny rink, almost seamlessly. Not worth the expense and loss of the rink for 3 years, to mess with something that works. It works! It’s not broken, so let’s not unnecessarily be ‘fixing’ it. Seems crazy to me that this would be a priority for the city…

March 29: If i may pipe in from my Dufferin Grove exile in Montreal

I totally agree with Laura. I worked in the park for a few years and saw that it works - the rink, the other skate pad, the wading pool, the playground, the cob cafe, the garden, the dinners, it works only imperfectly for sure, but then what’s perfect for all, at all times?

This rebuild project will result in the destruction of something special that’s grown organically and against all odds over decades. We ought to pay attention to what Jutta Mason is explaining so expertly in her series of articles. This is about the REIT-ification, the City Place-ification of all of Toronto. We’re seeing it at Bloor and Bathurst and it’s coming to Dufferin and Bloor.

There are so many better things to do with that $4.5 million. The Standard-sized rink and bringing the Club house and all else „up to Code“ and the consultations are renoviction in action, unfortunately…

Question is whether DG friends can muster enough resistance and support to have a chance of constructively influencing this. I hope so!

March 29: In an ideal world, we would all be happy with pucks not disappearing under the zamboni doors and that the corners be better. Outdoor shinny will always be rougher and trickier than in an indoor rink. That said, years of construction, closing down the rink for summer and winter sports seems like a waste of time and money - money better spent at the southern end of the park - installing bathrooms and accessible walkways. I played the Women of Winter shinny tourney in February and I thought the ice was great. I am also sure the zamboni doors could be replaced for a lot less money.

March 29: Another way of looking at the rink issue is from a climate crisis perspective. Not rebuilding the rink is definitely better for our planet. A rink is made from cement and cement is a big contributor to rising CO2 levels.

Also, if the city says it will take 3 years to rebuild the rink, we know from experience that it will actually take a lot longer. Remember the College Street “improvement” fiasco? <>

March 29: During 10 years on that rink I've never felt that the rink was too small, or that the corners were a problem.

The Zamboni door gap is common at other rinks and has to do with a slight gradient at the door. It's not something that requires replacing a slab. I don't see any drawbacks of larger ice, but the (in my mind, minor) benefits need to be weighed against what it would mean to lose those two rinks for multiple years.

March 30: Last night Councillor Ana Bailao posted a caution on this list, saying that the reason the concrete rink pads need to be replaced is because of "experiences technicians and skaters alike have had. City technicians have difficulty in keeping the ice safe and cleared..."

It's good to be cautious about safety but it's also good to be specific. "City technicians have difficulty" is not specific enough. And skaters are smart enough to understand the issues in greater detail.

The day after the Tuesday March 26 rink meeting, I emailed Lura, the community consultation firm the city hired for this project, and asked them for the following information:

1. The complete list of elements that don't "meet code" for the rink house as it is now, and the relevant building code numbers.

2. The specific list of bylaws and any other regulations that are not being adhered to currently at the rink (including on the rink slabs and surroundings), referencing the problematic building element and the number of the bylaw or regulation. This should include information about which of those elements pose a risk to occupational health and safety, or where there is a concern about a future legal claim against the city.

3. The specific test/assessments carried out on the rink slabs that show they need "imminent replacement."

Lura responded on Thursday: "We have forwarded your request to the City. We will let you know their response." Hopefully Councillor Bailoa will also find these details useful (assuming she has not been shown them yet) and the conversation can go from there.

March 30: Hi Austin, Like you I am sad that Friday shinny is over. I think a few points need to be made about the rink, though. My understanding is that we are having this conversation because the city is saying that the pipes under the pad need to be replaced soon. The larger size is not the motivation for this - rather it is part of a larger city program to replace the old ammonia-based chillers with newer technology that is safer, cleaner and more efficient. I think this is a good thing, especially for the staff who have to worry about ammonia leaks.

This is just what I heard - I'd like to see a city engineer confirm this. It is a matter for a qualified engineer - I don't buy the argument that it is working fine now so it will continue to do so. In fact it isn't working so well now - that is why our shinny games were moved to Wallace in December.

Another issue is the duration of the construction. You and several others mention three years. Really? I expect one year. I think someone made up the three year figure. It doesn't seem useful to spread stuff that has no basis.

March 30: I have been playing shinny, pleasure skating, and raising my kids to skate and play shinny at Dufferin Grove rink for two decades. I have never had, or witnessed anyone having a problem with the corners of the shinny side or the pleasure side, that were out of the ordinary for any outdoor community skating area. I have seen people have trouble with leaves blowing onto the ice, slushy areas on sunny days... these problems will not be fixed by building a new rink.

I am sure problems can be found with any structure or public area that can be used in an attempt to argue for changes, but for me and everyone I know and skate with, the thought of having to go 3 years without this local outdoor rink is far, far worse than continuing with the rink as it is. I would much prefer a new be added to the design of the condos going up at Bloor and Dufferin, to alleviate some of the overcrowding at Dufferin Grove, which is clearly the most popular public skating and shinny spot in this are, if not the whole city, or even megacity or region.

Or what about Sorauren Park? The shinny and skating enthusiasts there have made incredible progress building and maintaining natural ice for skating these last several winters, and have clearly proved their deserving of a refrigeration assisted skating facility. Maybe that's where some of this amazingly huge amount of improvement money can go - where there would likely be no argument against its allocation.

I would even prefer to see that money spent making a new facility in some other part of Toronto that I don't even go to, so other neighbourhoods can blossom into the amazing community that we are so lucky to be part of here. Sure, someday Dufferin Rink will need to be replaced. But that day is definitely not now, or in the near future.

March 30: I am on the CRG committee a local shinny player and my kids spent many happy hours at the rink house, this conversation seems to have turned to whether people feel a new rink is necessary at all. Here is a point of information I don’t know that everyone is aware of. I was told in a meeting that the engineers give the rink a year or 2 before the refrigeration system will need to be replaced, as far as I know the rink will be under construction for 1 season not 3. Also there is a condo being built at Bloor and Dufferin that will house a staggering 2700 units and another condo is being proposed for the north end of the Dufferin Mall lot so the number of rink users will definitely increase. The proposals include a new or renovated rink house, compressor system for making ice and both skating pads will be replaced.

March 30: For those who have not read it, here is the proposal for the clubhouse/rink rebuild prepared by the city in December 2018

And here is an analysis offered by the DufferinPark online newsletter written in January, 2019

My Main Takeaways: the Dufferin rink is actually longer than standard size, and about 9 feet narrower. The pleasure rink is standard size. The clubhouse/change rooms have several issues that need to be fixed/updated. The refrigeration unit that freezes the rink needs to be replaced.

Are these changes worth depriving the neighbourhood kids of a skating rink for the next 3-4 years? Probably not. In fact, I would be up in arms if my kids still skated on the rink.

So what to do with the $4 million Councillor Baillo is obliged to use for the park?

Let's start with the clubhouse/rink. The little community kitchens in the rink house should be cleaned and fixed where necessary. New refrigeration machinery in the compressor room. Make all access to the clubhouse and rink comply with current city bylaws. Fix the few minor concerns with the hockey rink: Pucks sliding under the south side board? How about a removable rubber strip, such as used for door stops; Rink corners not the right shape for Zamboni/skaters? Reshape the boards, not the rink, with purpose-built carpentry; Sticky doors to benches? Replace the doors.

And that would leave a ton of money left over for fixing the worst park problems. Such as paving all the muddy or crumbling asphalt paths. A decent, accessible washroom and storage building near the kids playground. And a complete renovation of the existing central washroom which is a total disgrace inside.

And that would still leave money left over for....well, what would Councillor Baillo think is a worthwhile addition?

March 31: This is a response to Jim McInnis' comment. Jim is right, the construction schedule that the city posted quite a while ago says that construction will go on for most of two years (Feb. 2020 to Dec. 2021) but the rink is scheduled to be closed for ONE season only. I think the number of years must have expanded in people's minds because of their experiences with delays elsewhere.

It's true that construction delays are not uncommon. Riverdale Rink, also a DTAH park-corner-revitalization project, was scheduled to be closed for only the 2016/2017 season but did not reopen until mid-December of the 2018/2019 season. On the other hand, the Wallace Rink rebuild in 2006 only took out half a season. That's the good news. The bad news is that Wallace Rink may have been hurried too much -- it developed troubles much sooner than expected, and both last year and this year it had a lot of down time as soon as the sun got higher in February.

Jim mentioned safety issues with ammonia cooling. The jury is still out on whether the replacement technology (CO2 cooling) is a better alternative. In December I had a long phone conversation with David Sinclair, the Ontario head of CIMCO (the refrigeration company). He said that CO2 cooling is excellent and economical in cold weather but not so good during warmer spells. And there's also a safety issue -- if there's an ammonia leak in the compressor room, the maintenance workers can at least smell it, whereas a CO2 leak is odourless and can kill in an enclosed room.

The Bentway skating trail has a CO2 system which works well but the Bentway only runs its rink for 7 - 8 weeks. The new skating trail at College Park has a CO2 system which was supposed to open in December, but they ran into problems with the pipes and the rink still isn't open (closed for 5 years now, for a multitude of reasons). The city has not stopped using ammonia-based cooling, and CIMCO is very positive about it. Mr. Sinclair said that when people talk to him about the risk of ammonia problems he asks them, "how do you heat your house? Oh, you have gas-heating? -- Well, how do you sleep at night?" And indeed we take the risk of gas explosions wherever there are gas pipes.

The fact is, whatever kind of new cooling system gets installed next year, the same brine substance will flow through the pipes under the slab. The refrigeration plant replacement and the demolition of the rink slabs are two separate issues. If you want to know more, go to the CELOS-run website, which -- for 16 years now -- has had a lot of detailed posts about all 53 city mechanically-cooled outdoor rinks.

April 2, 2019, Wednesday night women's shinny:

We are women who have been playing shinny on Wednesday nights at Dufferin Grove for more than a decade. And we say "DITTO" to Austin Emery's comments.

We do not feel that a new, larger or fancier rink is required.

Dufferin Grove is a community park with outdoor skating, under the trees and open skies. It is meant to offer urbanites a taste of quintessential winter, to replicate a frozen pond, to bring nature into the downtown core.

Sometimes the ice is bumpy and sometimes it is smooth as glass. We know the ice isn't perfect, but we don't expect or want perfection.

We have played under the moon on clear nights, in rain and through snowflakes. It is exhilarating. It is enchanting. We do not want a roof over our heads. We would like people to feel the sun on their Vitamin D deprived faces when they skate during the day. Most people in this town work indoors so give us all a chance to play outside.

The Dufferin Grove rink was not created to generate income by renting out ice 24/7 to adults or sports groups with cash and expectations of impeccable ice surfaces. Those rinks already exist - and they're indoor rinks. Dufferin Grove's rink is for pure outdoor and amateur fun.

We don't need a regulation sized rink. We're not professional players. And we'd bet an NHLer would love a pick-up game on our DG ice.

A bigger rink means less green space in the park when we should be striving to preserve as much green as possible. And a bigger rink would push out the basketball court and players. That's not very community minded.

As for the clubhouse, please do not tamper with it. It feels like home, a well-used rec room, an old cottage. We don't want another glass & steel, over-designed institutional centre. Again, we echo Austin Emery's sentiments. The atmosphere is paradise. We look forward to every Wednesday night of shinny.

April 2: 100% agree. Big is over-rated.

April 2: I have to say I agree pretty much completely with Austin’s comments. If it ain’t broken.... (Tuesday night women's shinny)

April 4: Thanks Wednesday night women's shinny
You said it all for me

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